back from K.C. David A / Stopper /P12 authorship

[Bernhard Stopper]

I never did accuse Arnold and André, i know they are fine, you have me 
completely misunderstood, don´t turn the words in my mouth. I said that 
it was André who put you on the trail, and not yourself, this were your 
own words in another post! Nor do i accuse any tuner who adapted the P12 
aurally,  so no way to get an excuse from me. But i accuse those, who 
turned into P12 after having heard from others, selling the thing as 
their own.

regards,

Bernhard

Richard Brekne schrieb:
> Bernard
>
> You seem like a nice fellow, and we have hashed this through before.  
> I go out of my way to credit you for the work you did in the 70's.. or 
> whenever it was, since you first brought my attention to it.  You no 
> doubt were influenced by people in your career and something 
> stimulated you to thinking along these lines... just like happened to 
> me.  I actually do resent greatly your  insistence that I am in so 
> many words a fake and a phony in this matter.  The fact is that the 
> major 6th and double 10th comparisons I ran into some years back do 
> not add up to a perfect 12th tuning. They just happen to compare the 
> 3:1 coincident. They (these tests) were brought into the picture as 
> just one other test for helping one get octaves. No one mentioned 
> anything to me at any point about tuning straight out from a 12ths 
> perspective instead of an Octave.
>
> Now this is the deal Bernard... through history many folks have 
> thought up things all on their own, made developments all on their 
> own, without knowing of others works before, after, parallel ... 
> whatever. Happens all the time. Get used to it.  In this case.. I have 
> time and time again since you first popped up claiming prior whatevers 
> on this idea acknowledged that you were before me.  I have never tried 
> to take credit for being the first guy to ever come up with this 
> idea... quite the opposite... In fact I have insisted that it is quite 
> likely the idea precedes you as well.  In fact I dont give a hoot 
> about any of this kind of thing.
>
> I do on the other hand take harm at someone insinuating time and time 
> again that I purposefully mislead people into thinking that the P-12 
> tuning idea that I came up with and executed on Tunelab was my own.  
> It was, and all your nasty insinuations to the contrary will not 
> change that.  I had no idea of what your work, and for your 
> information Andre was not the first person, nor the last for that 
> matter to <<introduce>> me to these tests. Not by a long shot.  The 
> only real coincidence any of this has with Andre is that I had 
> developed sufficiently in my own right to add a couple 2 and 2's 
> together and think about what would happen if you just plain used 
> Tunelab to enforce P-12ths strictly and ignore any and all other 
> priorities.  Nor did anyone give me any hint at all about looking at 
> the 9th root of 3.  It wasnt a quantum leap to make or anything mind 
> you... since using the 12th root of 2 do divide an octave into even 
> bits had been around for ages... when one first decides to look at 
> 12ths... its a rather reasonable step to take.  Yep... that piece of 
> <<brilliance>> was also all my own...despite it obviously having been 
> done elsewhere in the world unbeknownst to me previously.
>
> As for the rest of what you claim about Andre and Arnold,  I think its 
> in kind of poor taste to publicly accuse people of what you do below 
> behind their backs as it were.  I would point out tho your version of 
> <<history>> clearly admits a prior knowledge to your own of the basic 
> idea of using the 3:1 coincident as a tuning priority.  I would also 
> underline that the first instance I ever ran into of P 12 ths thinking 
> was a PTG article in the early 80's or late 70's as I remember.   At 
> the time I just read it with interest and dismissed the thought. I 
> never to this day have seen your own article... and since I had no 
> contact at all with Euro Piano prior to 1996 it is not likely that I 
> would have either.
>
> Now... I'd appreciate an apology from you on the matter.  I do not, 
> nor do Andre and Arnold, whom are fine, respectable, and honest 
> technicians, deserve these kinds of remarks.  Nor do you have any 
> reason whatsoever to feel threatened. Nobody at all has taken issue 
> with your work.  In fact... In my first response along these lines 
> just yesterday I paid deference to that and mentioned you by name.
>
> Cordially
> Richard Brekne
>
>
>    Ric,
>
>    The guy who put you into the trail to P12 you was André Oorebek from
>    Amsterdam (you figured out in another post) and  "a rather small 
> article
>    i found about in the seventies" (your own words, you still have to 
> find it)
>
>    Both indicates and proofs that it was not yourself who pushed you up
>    into the thing. In practice, the "other guy" already did so. Now 
> for the
>    theory: Arnold Duin from Amsterdam, a former companion of André 
> Oorebek,
>    told me at a Mensurix workshop i hold in Amsterdam a few years ago at
>    their convention that they learned the major
>    sixth-doubleoctavemajorthird test from their old teacher who was not
>    firm with any theory about tuning, but a good tuner. They tried to
>    convince him, that it is not correct to do so from tuning theory. Some
>    years later, after my publication in euro-piano, they began to 
> adapt  to
>    the  P12. The article you mentioned was probably mine (the initial
>    publication of the pure twelfth temperement or "Stopper-Tuning" in
>    euro-piano 1988) So your finding was indirectly (via Andre) and 
> probably
>    directly (the article) initiated by my work about the matter. I really
>    hate to offend other people, but you do so to me a little by 
> continously
>    claiming independent authorship on the theoretical matter in your 
> posts.
>
>    It was always my intention with the P12 temperament to get the tuning
>    theory compatible with what the best aural tuners tend to do, while 
> the
>    standard 12th root of two tempermant theory is not so. Mathematically
>    the 19th root of three temperament is on a first look only one 
> approach
>    between thousands of possibilities to split the pythagorean comma on
>    either side of the fifths circle.
>
>    More important (if not sensational, sorry for the self-praise) is my
>    finding of the beat symmetries (or symmetric interfenrence phenomene)
>    inherent in only this equal temperament four years ago, cancelling out
>    the beats in octave and fifths combinations and thus turning a 
> tempered
>    tuning into pure tuning when playing chords. And this the proof why 
> this
>    tempermant is superior to any other.
>
>
>    regards,
>
>    Bernhard Stopper
>
>
>    Richard Brekne schrieb:
>    > Hi Jason.  To take your thought a step further, The guy who first 
> put
>    > me on the trail of the P-12ths idea showed me a series of test
>    > intervals. A major third, major sixth, octave 10th and double octave
>    > 10th. For tuning C6 for example,  the relevant notes would be 
> Ab3, C4,
>    > F4, C5, and C6, with the Ab3 being the control note the whole 
> way.     > The Third should be slowest, but just slightly slower then 
> the 10th.
>    > The 6th should be fastest, again by a very slight amount, and the 
> note
>    > you are tuning... the double 10th should be just inbetween the 
> 6th and
>    > the other two. This makes the 12th below C6 just very slightly off
>    > pure. Just got me thinking back then that it would be easy to use
>    > Tunelab to do this directly
>    >
>    > David Anderson using the clean fourths this way moves in a very
>    > similar direction.
>    >
>    > Cheers
>    > RicB
>    >
>    >
>    >
>    >     Yes. As I think about it, I recall that David Andersen puts 
> great
>    >     emphasis
>    >     on the fourths, especially on the way down through the tenor. 
> Now
>    >     fourths do
>    >     happen to have the coincident partial that is a P12 from the 
> upper
>    >     note. So
>    >     in a manner of hearing, David is emphasizing P12 in his own 
> way. Hmm.
>    >
>    >     Jason
>    >
>